Discussion:
Why cyan soundtracks?
(too old to reply)
MovieBear1
2004-04-02 03:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Nobody's talking about the cyan soundtrack mandated implementation &
its consequences?
I'll believe it when I see it.
MGM switches to cyan tracks in May. The Disney companies switch this
Fall.

I must have missed WHY the industry wants to switch to this type of soundtrack.
what are the advantages and disadvantages to them.

Matt Spero
Antti Autio
2004-04-02 08:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by MovieBear1
I must have missed WHY the industry wants to switch to this type of soundtrack.
what are the advantages and disadvantages to them.
the process is said to be environmentally better. another advantage is
to get rid of tungsten bulbs as exciter lamps. see e.g.
http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/NovDec01/ioan_allen_two.html for
details.

-a.
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-02 15:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antti Autio
Post by MovieBear1
I must have missed WHY the industry wants to switch to this type of soundtrack.
what are the advantages and disadvantages to them.
the process is said to be environmentally better. another advantage is
to get rid of tungsten bulbs as exciter lamps. see e.g.
http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/NovDec01/ioan_allen_two.html for
details.
It's not necessarily all that much environmentally better. Mostly it's
just a lot cheaper, since there is no need to develop the sound track
seperately from the rest of the print. Silver tracks require a more
involved processing (except of course for B&W prints, where the whole image
is a silver image).

I do not see getting rid of tungsten bulbs as exciter lamps as an improvement
either. It sounds to me more like an unnecessary expense for exhibitors....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
William Hooper
2004-04-02 13:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by MovieBear1
Nobody's talking about the cyan soundtrack mandated implementation &
its consequences?
I'll believe it when I see it.
MGM switches to cyan tracks in May. The Disney companies switch this
Fall.
I must have missed WHY the industry wants to switch to this type of soundtrack.
what are the advantages and disadvantages to them.
It's easier to do it by chronology:

First, there's the analog silver soundtrack, & its white light (tungsten)
reader. It's been the optical soundtrack since SOF, backwards compatible
all the way up to today, compatible even when adapted to Dolby's matrixed
multichannel sound, etc. This means all those movies with optical
soundtracks can be run from archives, in rep, etc. SMPTE held most of
this together.

Then, there was an improvement to the design of the reader, reverse scan,
which improved response & S/N. Existing installations using the previous
"forward scan" readers were not affected, but new equipment was improved.

Next came infrared LED readers, which replaced the tungsten exciter bulb.
In their reverse scan configuration, they achieved the best fidelity
performance of any reader configuration on the optical track.

Then, in 1995, Kodak, Technicolor, & Dolby began to work together to
create a means of eliminating silver soundtracks.

Ongoing reports from the dye track soundtrack viewpoint can be found at
http://www.dyetracks.org/

The system they designed was this:
Soundtracks would be printed in cyan, & read by visible red LED readers.

The foremost point of is this system The new cyan soundtrack read by red
LED readers would be incompatible with the old system of readers & prints.
Cyan soundtracks would not play on infrared readers, & on white light
readers played poorly. Existing silver tracks play poorly on the new
visible red readers:

"Following a show of Red Alert, Andrew Wales presented some examples of
variable density
analogue tracks printed normally, with high magenta, and cyan dye. For each
track type there
were three examples at slightly different densities. The subject matter was
Moulin Rouge
dating from the early 50s and the tests were played using a red light
reader. As expected
the normal tracks sounded particularly poor, with very quiet, distorted,
and spitty sound"
(from
http://www.dyetracks.org/reports/minutes/2001/TechnicolorFilmService.meeting
.min.0301.html )

The cyan proponents then announced that a conversion to cyan soundtracks
was underway, & new equipment would need red readers to play the upcoming
cyan
soundtrack. Since the 2 systems were incompatible, it was neccessary before
the changeover in soundtracks to support the new red readers by ensuring
that the soundtrack could be read by both red readers & IR/white light
readers. The High-Magenta soundtrack was implemented, a system which is
performs more poorly than either the cyan or silver soundtrack, but can be
read by either existing tungsten/IR readers or the red readers as they were
being installed. From that point to now, all soundtracks have been silver
or high-magenta, enabling the red reader installs as existing readers were
in
place.

The other issues mostly derive from the fact that the proposed system of
sound
reproduction of a cyan track on a red reader is noisier than the silver
soundtrack & white/IR reader system. Its only "improvement" is reverse-
scan,
which was existent before in tungsten & IR systems, which implemented it
with
better performance:

--------

http://www.dyetracks.org/ci.os.0012.reddye.html
See Figure 6

Red Readers, Silver, High-Magenta, and Cyan Analog Soundtracks:
Review and Status

by Paul R. Goldberg

Noise Performance

Tests have demonstrated that readers based on broad band tungsten, or white
light, illumination sources are quieter than readers based on narrow band
red LED illumination sources (660 ± 20 nm light energy spectrum). It is
believed that this is due to the fact that when the track is lluminated by
broad spectrum white light, the incoherent noise sources from each of the
film's
color layers add on a random basis and thus the noise "averages out." If a
narrow spectral band illumination system is employed, this averaging cannot
take place and thus the signal-to-noise ratio is impaired. This is true
whether a standard silver track, high-magenta applicated track, or cyan dye
track is being presented. It is also independent of the type of release
stock employed.

Figure 6 depicts this phenomenon for a standard silver track on Agfa
release stock. Note that in all cases the curves for the red reader
"look worse than they actually sound." This is because it is extremely
rare for the bias line to fully open during actual movie sound track
presentation.

Extensive listening tests at Dolby Laboratories have shown that the
use of Dolby SR encoded soundtracks, although not completely eliminating
the additional red reader noise, reduces its effect to the point that
air conditioner noise will significantly mask the problem.

-----------

(thanks to a very observant & admired fellow!)

It's interesting in passing that the air conditioning noise which THX's
theater improvement campaign tried to eliminate has instead become a
component to be included in the cyan soundtrack system.

The incompatibility issue is very significant for theaters (PAC's, art
houses, some independents) which run any combination of rep/current/art
fare. Prints with either track will sound bad on the wrong reader, so
which reader do you install? A permanently installed red reader yields
poor reproduction of silver tracks on films running from pre-high-magenta
to the dawn of SOF, an IR/tungsten reader cannot play new cyan tracks.
Switching readers is not as simple as switching a lens: an A-chain
alignment is required. There is a reverse scan reader which has this
versatility (visible red to IR), but the A-chain is easily beyond the
knowledge & equipment available to most operators. Another option is a
product which is a visible RED array which can replace the bulb in a
tungsten system: it is not reverse scan, & there are many reports of
it being troublesome in the field due to the resulting signal from
the cell being low. It requires a pre-amp between the cell & processor,
& is very sensitive to noise as the result of EMF & ambient light
(one tech tells the operators to run movies with the fluorescents off).
Switching readers between films is easily impractical.

The next problem is with existing libraries of prints that these venues
draw from. New prints of older titles are often struck, the new ones
will have cyan soundtracks. So a theater running rep fare cannot
know if the print that will show up will have one soundtrack or another.
New prints of black & white films will have silver tracks which are
optimized for red readers; in that case even visual identification of
the type of reader to use would be impractical. The folks running these
companies, likewise, cannot with any practicality determine what kind of
reader is in the theatre where a print is to be sent.

Older titles struck with new cyan tracks will have another problem which
is the same for any *new* title that is in mono. Since the cyan
soundtrack/red reader system is inherently noisier, Dolby SR is required
(see above). Older titles which are mono, when printed with their original
sound negatives, will have worse S/N than the silver tracks. That
would be true for any mono film, so all optical tracks will need to be
encoded with Dolby SR. Maybe Dolby will cut folks a break on this,
since the system is dependent on Dolby components being present: encoding,
processors, & all LED's supplied to visible red LED readers. Someone else
would be more likely to know if there are more components related only to
patents.

The concerns of incompatibility for theaters which would be faced with a
mix of soundtrack types was raised often in the minutes of the Cyan Track
Committee's meetings, but no resolution or further action was reported.

Practically, if you've got a theater, PAC or art house which runs these
programs, you will get a mix of soundtrack types. It is impractical to
switch readers, so film becomes impractical as a medium in that type of
programming. As more cyan-track films go into circulation, it would
make more economic sense to use video projection. The rep/art house/PAC
theaters, that type of programming, & the companies which provide them
with product are being pushed out of the boat.

Advantages: The labs save money, Dolby makes money. The processes the
lab saves on (which otherwise they'd have to solve at their own expense)
can be construed as good for the environment, so the 'film industry' can
claim PR of being environmtally-friendly.

Disadvantages: Incompatibility of titles, inferior analog soundtracks.
Non current-release programming & theaters lost.
--
Article posté via l'accès Usenet http://www.mes-news.com
Accès par Nnrp ou Web
Scott Norwood
2004-04-02 14:01:08 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@mes-news.com>,
William Hooper <***@mindless.com> wrote:
[informative stuff snipped]
Post by William Hooper
Older titles struck with new cyan tracks will have another problem which
is the same for any *new* title that is in mono. Since the cyan
soundtrack/red reader system is inherently noisier, Dolby SR is required
(see above). Older titles which are mono, when printed with their original
sound negatives, will have worse S/N than the silver tracks. That
would be true for any mono film, so all optical tracks will need to be
encoded with Dolby SR.
[more informative stuff snipped]

Note, also, that older titles that are being reprinted will need
to have new soundtrack negatives struck in order to optimize
cross-mod distortion for compability with LED readers (presumably
the NR would be included in new tracks, too). I'm willing to bet
that almost no distributor will actually do this, except maybe for
a wide reissue. It's hard enough to get new prints struck from
old elements, much less to make new soundtrack negatives.

Also, note that many venues are still mono- or Dolby-A-only and
don't have SR reproduction capability. This is an unnecessary
expense for venues which show primiarily older (mono) titles,
anyway.

And if anyone has any idea how to convert Western Electric Universal
Bases to properly play cyan tracks, please let me know. I fill in
from time to time at a theatre that still uses a pair of these
(every day since 1938). The dye-track advocates seem to conveniently
forget about equipment that doesn't have an off-the-shelf conversion
kit and also about venues which aren't full-time theatres, but may
show a handful of titles per year.
--
Scott Norwood: ***@nyx.net, ***@redballoon.net
Cool Home Page: http://www.redballoon.net/
Lame Quote: Penguins? In Snack Canyon?
Ken Layton
2004-04-02 14:49:27 UTC
Permalink
And don't forget that many outlying areas of the world still use exciter lamps.
Places like China, Africa, Russia, Mexico, etc. have old equipment and still
use exciter lamps. Some portable 35mm projectors use exciter lamps and/or
cannot be converted to new sound pickups.

The only benefits this new sound track brings is to the labs (who shave about
$200 off the cost of making a print and who are NOT passing the savings along
to the customer) and to the industry as whole who can now say "look what we did
for the 'environment' ". IMO they should be saying, "look how we f**ked things
up!" If it ain't broke don't fix it. Exciter lamps have worked well since the
invention of optical sound on film and insured sound compatibilty at ANY
theater in the world.
Joseph Goodman
2004-04-02 19:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Layton
The only benefits this new sound track brings is to the labs (who shave about
$200 off the cost of making a print and who are NOT passing the savings along
to the customer) and to the industry as whole who can now say "look what we did
for the 'environment' ".
One thing I've never seen spelled out is exactly what kind of environmental
"damage" some of the chemicals used in various film processes can cause. Can
it really be worse than some of the by-products of other industries?
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-02 22:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Layton
Post by Ken Layton
The only benefits this new sound track brings is to the labs (who shave
about
Post by Ken Layton
$200 off the cost of making a print and who are NOT passing the savings
along
Post by Ken Layton
to the customer) and to the industry as whole who can now say "look what
we did
Post by Ken Layton
for the 'environment' ".
One thing I've never seen spelled out is exactly what kind of environmental
"damage" some of the chemicals used in various film processes can cause. Can
it really be worse than some of the by-products of other industries?
It probably was pretty bad, in the days of ferricyanide bleaches and
dumping used fixers and bleach. Today, with the new bleach formulations
and silver reclamation, film processing is pretty clean.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-02 15:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Norwood
And if anyone has any idea how to convert Western Electric Universal
Bases to properly play cyan tracks, please let me know. I fill in
from time to time at a theatre that still uses a pair of these
(every day since 1938). The dye-track advocates seem to conveniently
forget about equipment that doesn't have an off-the-shelf conversion
kit and also about venues which aren't full-time theatres, but may
show a handful of titles per year.
Are they using the original phototubes? If they are still set up for
phototubes, I may have a solution for you in the form of a Hamamatsu
phototube with red sensitivity. It will not be an octal base, though,
so you may need to rig an adaptor.

The original #22 phototubes are mostly sensitive to green light and
will have S/N very close to zero with a cyan image.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Scott Norwood
2004-04-02 15:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Scott Norwood
And if anyone has any idea how to convert Western Electric Universal
Bases to properly play cyan tracks, please let me know. I fill in
from time to time at a theatre that still uses a pair of these
(every day since 1938). The dye-track advocates seem to conveniently
forget about equipment that doesn't have an off-the-shelf conversion
kit and also about venues which aren't full-time theatres, but may
show a handful of titles per year.
Are they using the original phototubes? If they are still set up for
phototubes, I may have a solution for you in the form of a Hamamatsu
phototube with red sensitivity. It will not be an octal base, though,
so you may need to rig an adaptor.
Nope, the original sound system went out in the late '80s. They're now
using solar cells and a Kelmar all-in-one pre-amp/amplifier system.

That's not to say that they wouldn't consider something like this if
the dye track thing actually happens, however.
--
Scott Norwood: ***@nyx.net, ***@redballoon.net
Cool Home Page: http://www.redballoon.net/
Lame Quote: Penguins? In Snack Canyon?
Scott Norwood
2004-04-02 15:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Scott Norwood
And if anyone has any idea how to convert Western Electric Universal
Bases to properly play cyan tracks, please let me know. I fill in
from time to time at a theatre that still uses a pair of these
(every day since 1938). The dye-track advocates seem to conveniently
forget about equipment that doesn't have an off-the-shelf conversion
kit and also about venues which aren't full-time theatres, but may
show a handful of titles per year.
Are they using the original phototubes? If they are still set up for
phototubes, I may have a solution for you in the form of a Hamamatsu
phototube with red sensitivity. It will not be an octal base, though,
so you may need to rig an adaptor.
Nope, the original sound system went out in the late '80s. They're now
using solar cells and a Kelmar all-in-one pre-amp/amplifier system.

That's not to say that they wouldn't consider something like this if
the dye track thing actually happens, however.
--
Scott Norwood: ***@nyx.net, ***@redballoon.net
Cool Home Page: http://www.redballoon.net/
Lame Quote: Penguins? In Snack Canyon?
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-02 22:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Norwood
Nope, the original sound system went out in the late '80s. They're now
using solar cells and a Kelmar all-in-one pre-amp/amplifier system.
That's not to say that they wouldn't consider something like this if
the dye track thing actually happens, however.
The way I see it, all you need is a photosensor that is fast, and is
sensitive to red light. You don't really need the reverse scan stuff.
It would be nice to have a narrowband LED light source, but if the
sensor is sufficiently narrowband, you don't even need that.

And it can be mono. And it has to be cheap.

Hmm.... Century ANAPFET comes to mind somehow..... It's not exactly
the most linear device in town, but it's got a narrow red sensitivity
as I recall, and it's probably available free for the asking.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
ahollis
2004-04-06 03:14:50 UTC
Permalink
The conversion kits for the theatres cost around $500.00 per projector.
They take out the exciter guts and replace it with a red LED. This Red LED
will also read the existing soundtracks. At Showest this year in Las Vegas,
several tech support companies were pushing a new lower cost converter that
just plugs in and can be used in any model sound head no matter the year
made.

I converted my soundheads this past summer when Dreamworks announced one of
their fall pictures would be released only in the cyan format. I also used
the $500.00 conversion kits, wish I had known about the newer kit.

All along the push for this was that it will make the environment cleaner.
One thing is that there is not an exciter bulb to burn out during the show.
Post by MovieBear1
Nobody's talking about the cyan soundtrack mandated implementation &
its consequences?
I'll believe it when I see it.
MGM switches to cyan tracks in May. The Disney companies switch this
Fall.
I must have missed WHY the industry wants to switch to this type of soundtrack.
what are the advantages and disadvantages to them.
Matt Spero
Scott Norwood
2004-04-06 03:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by ahollis
The conversion kits for the theatres cost around $500.00 per projector.
True, if a conversion kit exists, plus the cost of a service call
to install and align the new LED system. Plus the cost of reworking
existing exciter- lamp changeover systems so that they don't make
a "thud" at every changeover.
Post by ahollis
They take out the exciter guts and replace it with a red LED. This Red LED
will also read the existing soundtracks.
But with reduced sound quality than an exciter system, for tracks
recorded with cross-mod distortion optimized for white-light systems.
Post by ahollis
At Showest this year in Las Vegas,
several tech support companies were pushing a new lower cost converter that
just plugs in and can be used in any model sound head no matter the year
made.
Would this be the Jaxlight? Those work in Simplex and Century
soundheads (and various others), but not Western Electric soundheads
(which use non-prefocus bases). They require an extra preamp
between the solar cell and the regular preamp. They suck.
Post by ahollis
All along the push for this was that it will make the environment cleaner.
And will sell more LEDs for Dolby (which is the only company that
is supplying them). And will probably also sell more cinema sound
processors, since the rumor is that dye tracks are noisier and
virtually require SR noise reduction (will reprints of older titles
always have new soundtrack negatives shot? I doubt it!).
Post by ahollis
One thing is that there is not an exciter bulb to burn out during the show.
Instead, you have a more complicated and expensive system that
lasts longer, but requires a service call and A-chain alignment
every few years. Personally, I'd prefer the $10 solution that fails
catastrophicly, but can be replaced in thirty seconds.
--
Scott Norwood: ***@nyx.net, ***@redballoon.net
Cool Home Page: http://www.redballoon.net/
Lame Quote: Penguins? In Snack Canyon?
Ken Layton
2004-04-06 03:45:12 UTC
Permalink
I agree with Scott Norwood. A burnt out exciter lamp takes all of 15 seconds to
change and no technician needed. With an led system what if you had a power
spike come thru the system on a busy Saturday night and your theater is out in
the sticks----that led would die and you'd have NO SHOW (plus you'd have to
call a tech). Worst that could happen to an exciter is that it would burn out
and you could change it yourself---show saved!
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-06 14:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Norwood
Post by ahollis
several tech support companies were pushing a new lower cost converter that
just plugs in and can be used in any model sound head no matter the year
made.
Would this be the Jaxlight? Those work in Simplex and Century
soundheads (and various others), but not Western Electric soundheads
(which use non-prefocus bases). They require an extra preamp
between the solar cell and the regular preamp. They suck.
These are kind of nonoptimal because the solar cells aren't very sensitive
to red light. That extra preamp is required as a result... and the end
result of that is that noise caused by stray light is considerably worse.

They don't work at all with phototubes, which are even less sensitive to
red light.
Post by Scott Norwood
Post by ahollis
One thing is that there is not an exciter bulb to burn out during the show.
Instead, you have a more complicated and expensive system that
lasts longer, but requires a service call and A-chain alignment
every few years. Personally, I'd prefer the $10 solution that fails
catastrophicly, but can be replaced in thirty seconds.
I am surprised nobody has built a cheap retrofit that uses a red-sensitive
phototransistor, or some sort of doped solar cell.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
MovieBear1
2004-04-06 16:11:53 UTC
Permalink
I am surprised nobody has built a cheap retrofit that uses a red-sensitive
phototransistor, or some sort of doped solar cell.
--scott

So what would happen if I was to put a red filter over the existing white
light?

Matt Spero
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-06 16:28:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
I am surprised nobody has built a cheap retrofit that uses a red-sensitive
phototransistor, or some sort of doped solar cell.
So what would happen if I was to put a red filter over the existing white
light?
You'd get MUCH lower output, because the existing solar cell is sensitive
mostly to green light. Same basic problem that you get using a red LED.

On the other hand, if you made a magenta dye track, it would work a lot
better with existing heads, though still with poorer S/N than a silver
track because the dye just can't block as much light as the silver. I
do this on 16mm prints from reversal originals, to avoid making an
intermediate, and it sounds... well... not all that good, but good enough
for the festival circuit anyway.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Clive Tobin
2004-04-07 00:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by MovieBear1
So what would happen if I was to put a red filter over the existing white
light?
You'd get MUCH lower output, because the existing solar cell is sensitive
mostly to green light.
Not remotely true. The peak sensitivity of a silicon solar cell is in the
near infrared around 800 nm, not so far from the maximum output of a
tungsten lamp.

A red filter would do next to nothing in most cases, as most red filters are
completely transparent to infrared as well as to visible red. So there would
be no improvement in cyan-track audio quality. You would have to use a
specially multicoated bandpass interference filter.

What might work is to try and find an old selenium "sun battery" which has
maximum sensitivity to green, and still appreciable sensitivity to red, with
low sensitivity to infrared. So with this, a red filter might almost work. I
don't think selenium photovoltaic cells have been made for many years, as
they were rendered obsolete for most power generation purposes by silicon.
Many experimenters' junk boxes may still have an old IR B2M "sun battery"
which was selenium.

Clive Tobin
www.tobincinemasystems.com
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-07 20:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Tobin
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by MovieBear1
So what would happen if I was to put a red filter over the existing white
light?
You'd get MUCH lower output, because the existing solar cell is sensitive
mostly to green light.
Not remotely true. The peak sensitivity of a silicon solar cell is in the
near infrared around 800 nm, not so far from the maximum output of a
tungsten lamp.
Hmm... I got a data sheet on a Clairex thing here which looks like a big
green peak, but I have to admit that I don't know what the source of the
cells that the typical projectors use are and haven't seen a data sheet.
Post by Clive Tobin
A red filter would do next to nothing in most cases, as most red filters are
completely transparent to infrared as well as to visible red. So there would
be no improvement in cyan-track audio quality. You would have to use a
specially multicoated bandpass interference filter.
How well do the cyan dyes block infrared? And how about a cheap dichroic
filter if they pass a lot of it.
Post by Clive Tobin
What might work is to try and find an old selenium "sun battery" which has
maximum sensitivity to green, and still appreciable sensitivity to red, with
low sensitivity to infrared. So with this, a red filter might almost work. I
don't think selenium photovoltaic cells have been made for many years, as
they were rendered obsolete for most power generation purposes by silicon.
Many experimenters' junk boxes may still have an old IR B2M "sun battery"
which was selenium.
As far as I know, selenium cells are unobtainable. I could use a couple to
repair some old light meters.

How about those wacky phototransistor things that Century was selling for
a while? I think those are pretty narrowband, aren't they?
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Clive Tobin
2004-04-07 22:18:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Hmm... I got a data sheet on a Clairex thing here which looks like a big
green peak,
This is no doubt for a CdS photoconductive cell. These are far too slow for
audio pickup.
Post by Scott Dorsey
How well do the cyan dyes block infrared? And how about a cheap dichroic
filter if they pass a lot of it.
Most color dyes are also totally transparent to infrared, which is why the
tracks are traditionally silver applicated, to get control over the infrared
which is where the photocells are traditionally most sensitive.

An exception to this is one of the Agfa/Gevaert color positive stocks (I
forget which one, and they are all now discontinued) which did have a cyan
dye that absorbed strongly in the infrared. They claimed it would work okay
with a silicon photocell without track application.

A dichroic filter will reduce the infrared, but perhaps not enough, about
90%.
Post by Scott Dorsey
How about those wacky phototransistor things that Century was selling for
a while? I think those are pretty narrowband, aren't they?
ANAPFETs? I am not familiar with these, but if they are silicon they still
would have peak sensitivity in the IR. Some old 16mm projectors used
germanium phototransistors which are worse as their peak is around 1300 nm
as I recall. These were I think used in the later Graflex and in some JAN
projectors.

A company called Lumileds www.lumileds.com is selling super high output
LEDs, with current ratings up to 1 amp. Their red ones are 625 nm which is a
bit off the cyan peak, but perhaps not seriously so. They are available in
various output patterns or with a collimating lens. Since they are near
point source, you could perhaps use a shorter focal length condenser lens in
the slit lens assembly, and mount the LED closer than the filament was, and
maybe get enough light output for a normal preamp, maybe, perhaps, possibly.
I have not tried it. The output flux is rated up to 44 lumens of pure red
light.

These should be less finicky and cheaper than a red laser. Has anyone tried
a red laser, such as from a laser pointer? They tend to not have a very
uniform light output across the beam.

Clive Tobin
www.tobincinemasystems.com
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-08 00:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Tobin
Post by Scott Dorsey
Hmm... I got a data sheet on a Clairex thing here which looks like a big
green peak,
This is no doubt for a CdS photoconductive cell. These are far too slow for
audio pickup.
No, it's not a CdS cell, it's a silicon cell most definitely.
Post by Clive Tobin
Post by Scott Dorsey
How well do the cyan dyes block infrared? And how about a cheap dichroic
filter if they pass a lot of it.
Most color dyes are also totally transparent to infrared, which is why the
tracks are traditionally silver applicated, to get control over the infrared
which is where the photocells are traditionally most sensitive.
An exception to this is one of the Agfa/Gevaert color positive stocks (I
forget which one, and they are all now discontinued) which did have a cyan
dye that absorbed strongly in the infrared. They claimed it would work okay
with a silicon photocell without track application.
A dichroic filter will reduce the infrared, but perhaps not enough, about
90%.
Hmm.... if this is the case indeed, then a narrowband LED should be fine
and give as good S/N with a dye track as a lamp will with a sulfited track.
But it doesn't. Why?
Post by Clive Tobin
Post by Scott Dorsey
How about those wacky phototransistor things that Century was selling for
a while? I think those are pretty narrowband, aren't they?
ANAPFETs? I am not familiar with these, but if they are silicon they still
would have peak sensitivity in the IR. Some old 16mm projectors used
germanium phototransistors which are worse as their peak is around 1300 nm
as I recall. These were I think used in the later Graflex and in some JAN
projectors.
I bet I have one around here somewhere and I'll see. They are silicon,
but they are phototransistors and not photocells.
Post by Clive Tobin
A company called Lumileds www.lumileds.com is selling super high output
LEDs, with current ratings up to 1 amp. Their red ones are 625 nm which is a
bit off the cyan peak, but perhaps not seriously so. They are available in
various output patterns or with a collimating lens. Since they are near
point source, you could perhaps use a shorter focal length condenser lens in
the slit lens assembly, and mount the LED closer than the filament was, and
maybe get enough light output for a normal preamp, maybe, perhaps, possibly.
I have not tried it. The output flux is rated up to 44 lumens of pure red
light.
I have used these things for darkroom safelights and they are wonderful.
Very monochromatic... I can hold 320 ASA ortho stock right up to the safelight
to see the image and not fog anything.
Post by Clive Tobin
These should be less finicky and cheaper than a red laser. Has anyone tried
a red laser, such as from a laser pointer? They tend to not have a very
uniform light output across the beam.
The problem is slitting it down, I would think.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Clive Tobin
2004-04-09 03:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
No, it's not a CdS cell, it's a silicon cell most definitely.
Ah, this must be for one of their photometric cells with a built-in visual
response filter. This should be very inefficient, cutting the red response
way down, and wouldn't be any good for reading a red LED. An unfiltered Si
photocell or phototransistor peaks in the infrared.
Post by Scott Dorsey
a narrowband LED should be fine
and give as good S/N with a dye track as a lamp will with a sulfited track.
But it doesn't. Why?
Dunno. But a normal silver plus dye track uses both the magenta and cyan
layers superimposed, so maybe the graininess averages out better or
something. Also the magenta layer is sharper and less grainy to start with.
Perhaps "they" (whoever they were) should have picked green LEDs instead,
using the magenta dye. Super high output green LEDs are now available also.

(You mean a silver applicated track. Sulfide (not sulfite) application was
used on color reversal films that couldn't take a silver track.)

Clive Tobin
www.tobincinemasystems.com
JohnW248
2004-04-09 19:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Tobin
(You mean a silver applicated track. Sulfide (not sulfite) application was
used on color reversal films that couldn't take a silver track.)
Thank heavens it wasn't me making that mistake again.

John
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-12 14:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Tobin
Post by Scott Dorsey
No, it's not a CdS cell, it's a silicon cell most definitely.
Ah, this must be for one of their photometric cells with a built-in visual
response filter. This should be very inefficient, cutting the red response
way down, and wouldn't be any good for reading a red LED. An unfiltered Si
photocell or phototransistor peaks in the infrared.
Makes sense, although possibly it's doped like an SBC is.
Post by Clive Tobin
Post by Scott Dorsey
a narrowband LED should be fine
and give as good S/N with a dye track as a lamp will with a sulfited
track.
Post by Scott Dorsey
But it doesn't. Why?
Dunno. But a normal silver plus dye track uses both the magenta and cyan
layers superimposed, so maybe the graininess averages out better or
something. Also the magenta layer is sharper and less grainy to start with.
Perhaps "they" (whoever they were) should have picked green LEDs instead,
using the magenta dye. Super high output green LEDs are now available also.
That would make more sense, I would think.
Post by Clive Tobin
(You mean a silver applicated track. Sulfide (not sulfite) application was
used on color reversal films that couldn't take a silver track.)
My big interest in dye tracks mostly has to do with 16mm reversal prints.
I see a few of them on the festival circuit, all with dye tracks (since
the labs are unable to do sulfided stuff these days), and they all sound
godawful. But they shouldn't have to. I may actually try hacking up a
Filmosound with some high intensity LEDs just to see what the S/N change
is like. I found a dichroic bandpass filter in the closet and I will give
that a try.

Hmm... you know, I have a couple filmosounds with phototubes... maybe a
call to Hamamatsu is in order.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Ken Layton
2004-04-12 14:30:21 UTC
Permalink
A 16mm print with a cyan dye soundtrack??? WTF! The cyan people said only 35mm
films would get cyan soundtracks and that 16mm films would specifically NOT be
changed to cyan. Those liars!
Scott Dorsey
2004-04-12 15:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Layton
A 16mm print with a cyan dye soundtrack??? WTF! The cyan people said only 35mm
films would get cyan soundtracks and that 16mm films would specifically NOT be
changed to cyan. Those liars!
16mm reversal has been done with dye tracks for about a decade now, since
nobody can do old-style sulfided tracks. 16mm reversal printing is pretty
much dead except for student films and the occasional short subjects on
the festival circuit, so labs have no motivation to improve this.

These are usually black dye tracks, with all three layers being used.
Presumably this would mean poorer high frequency response but the noise floor
is a more important issue.

The real solution for all of these problems is to make an internegative and
strike the final print from that using regular positive stock with a silver
track, but most of the folks shooting reversal are trying to save every penny.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Clive Tobin
2004-04-12 17:19:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Hmm... you know, I have a couple filmosounds with phototubes... maybe a
call to Hamamatsu is in order.
Actually, I just paid a visit to Bill Purdy who just retired from and sold
Component Engineering. He gave me a few small infrared-blocking glass
filters which might be good for experiments. These were used in an earlier
model of soundtrack reader (predating the red LED) that had a halogen bulb.

If Scott and John (and perhaps a couple of other interested parties) want to
email me your address, I can mail you one to play with. I don't want to
publish my email here to be grabbed by spambots, but it appears in
human-readable form on my website.

Clive Tobin
www.tobincinemasystems.com
JohnW248
2004-04-12 19:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Hmm... you know, I have a couple filmosounds with phototubes... maybe a
call to Hamamatsu is in order.
You know back in the days of Cinecolor and other processes in the 40s that had
dye tracks, theatres had two sets of phototubes. One for black and white and
Technicolor and another (I think is was an S-4) which read the dye tracks.

On the other hand, the low priced Apollo Projector which used a piece of
ni-chrome wire instead of an exciter lamp came with a warning that it couldn't
use Cinecolor or Technicolor "B" prints.

John

JohnW248
2004-04-08 15:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive Tobin
An exception to this is one of the Agfa/Gevaert color positive stocks (I
forget which one, and they are all now discontinued) which did have a cyan
dye that absorbed strongly in the infrared. They claimed it would work okay
with a silicon photocell without track application.
I think this stock was introduced back in 1967-68 as a means of improving
optical sound on Super8 prints (which to my knowledge were never applicated). I
seem to recall you also told me that the dyes in Kodachrome from the 1950s were
sufficient for 16mm optical sound recorded in the Auricon camera.

I tried some experiements with a Selenium cell back in the early 70s and as I
recall, there was a much lower output per lumen than with the solar cell which
resulted in more noise.

It seems strange that the efforts are being made for cyan sound tracks WITHOUT
changing the dye spectral response in the positive material.

(Agfa does list a color positive stock and two sound track stocks on their
website as their only motion picture products.)

John
Clive Tobin
2004-04-09 04:25:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnW248
I tried some experiements with a Selenium cell back in the early 70s and as I
recall, there was a much lower output per lumen than with the solar cell which
resulted in more noise.
Yes, the selenium is less efficient to begin with and has less sensitivity
to the exciter lamp also, which puts out mostly infrared.
Post by JohnW248
(Agfa does list a color positive stock and two sound track stocks on their
website as their only motion picture products.)
Ah, yes, the cyan curve does look a lot like I remember for the older print
stocks. It does absorb a lot more near-infrared than the Kodak positive, but
it is still transparent by the time you get to 800-1000 nm range, where
unfiltered tungsten and a silicon solar cell has the most coupling. So this
would still not be any good for unapplicated tracks with a tungsten lamp.
Adding a good IR filter should help.

The super-8 optical sound projectors had a filter to block most of the IR.
The system was not known for fidelity as I recall.

Clive Tobin
www.tobincinemasystems.com
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