Storing 35mm 1968 film trailers...

[CineSIght]

I've just received two 35mm trailers from a sixties roadshow, and they
appear to be in good shape. I'd like to know the best way to store
them to make sure they stay that way.

I recall having a nice 70mm print from the same year sent from London
to Beverly Hills a few years ago, and after six months in a Studio
vault it looked like a pink coloring book. I'm in an apartment in
Hollywood, which can get humid and hot, though unlike those vaults, I
do have some AC, so I'm trying to figure a good way to keep these
trailers from turning.

Any suggestions?

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by CineSIght
I've just received two 35mm trailers from a sixties roadshow, and they
appear to be in good shape. I'd like to know the best way to store
them to make sure they stay that way.

If they are on cores, it's probably best to store them flat, in cans,
in a well-ventilated area with comfortable humidity.

If you ask Kodak they will send you a copy of Publication H-23 "The
Book of Film Care." It's probably on the net somewhere, even.

Post by CineSIght
I recall having a nice 70mm print from the same year sent from London
to Beverly Hills a few years ago, and after six months in a Studio
vault it looked like a pink coloring book. I'm in an apartment in
Hollywood, which can get humid and hot, though unlike those vaults, I
do have some AC, so I'm trying to figure a good way to keep these
trailers from turning.

Humidity and heat are bad. Keep it below 70'F. However, you should know
that some print stocks just turn color no matter what... some are pretty
immune to color shifts... and some (like Agfachrome) depend a lot on
the conditions in the film lab.
--scott

[CineSIght]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by CineSIght
I've just received two 35mm trailers from a sixties roadshow, and they
appear to be in good shape.  I'd like to know the best way to store
them to make sure they stay that way.

If they are on cores, it's probably best to store them flat, in cans,
in a well-ventilated area with comfortable humidity.
If you ask Kodak they will send you a copy of Publication H-23 "The
Book of Film Care."  It's probably on the net somewhere, even.

Post by CineSIght
I recall having a nice 70mm print from the same year sent from London
to Beverly Hills a few years ago, and after six months in a Studio
vault it looked like a pink coloring book.   I'm in an apartment in
Hollywood, which can get humid and hot, though unlike those vaults, I
do have some AC, so I'm trying to figure a good way to keep these
trailers from turning.

Humidity and heat are bad.  Keep it below 70'F.  However, you should know
that some print stocks just turn color no matter what... some are pretty
immune to color shifts... and some (like Agfachrome) depend a lot on
the conditions in the film lab.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

No cores, just the film, in a cardboard box. The preview still has
the paper wrap from National Screen. It almost looks like they have a
mag track, but that edge is just brownish. I know cool and dry are
best and maybe airtight? Maybe I should invest in a couple special
containers... although I have a hunch if they've lasted this long in a
box maybe anything airtight and flat bottomed at the right dry
temperature. What about those little packets they put in vitamin
bottles to keep them dry? Not getting fanatical here, just curious.

[CineSIght]

Post by Scott Dorsey
Humidity and heat are bad.  Keep it below 70'F.  However, you should know
that some print stocks just turn color no matter what... some are pretty
immune to color shifts... and some (like Agfachrome) depend a lot on
the conditions in the film lab.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

The big one says Eastman 7 on the clear edge. 2HX 95672 on the tinted
edge. Both optical Stereo. Teaser says A40X-9664 on dark edge.

[Stephen Furley]

On 18/4/10 02:25, in article

Post by CineSIght
The big one says Eastman 7 on the clear edge. 2HX 95672 on the tinted
edge. Both optical Stereo. Teaser says A40X-9664 on dark edge.

Optical stereo from 1968? It's possible, but unlikely. There were some
experimental optical stereo tracks in the mid '30s, and also in the '50s,
but the '50s ones didn't last until the '60s, and Dolby stereo didn't come
until the '70s. I suppose they could be for a re-release in Dolby stereo of
what was originally a 4 track mag film. Are you sure it's not just ordinary
Academy mono; this seems far more likely if they are from 1968.

If they really are optical stereo from that date I'd be interested to know
what they are.

[CineSIght]

Post by Stephen Furley
On 18/4/10 02:25, in article

The big one says Eastman 7 on the clear edge.  2HX 95672 on the tinted
edge.  Both optical Stereo.  Teaser says A40X-9664 on dark edge.

Optical stereo from 1968?  It's possible, but unlikely.  There were some
experimental optical stereo tracks in the mid '30s, and also in the '50s,
but the '50s ones didn't last until the '60s, and Dolby stereo didn't come
until the '70s.  I suppose they could be for a re-release in Dolby stereo of
what was originally a 4 track mag film.  Are you sure it's not just ordinary
Academy mono; this seems far more likely if they are from 1968.
If they really are optical stereo from that date I'd be interested to know
what they are.

These are originals from 68, sat in the same place for 30 years. Two
white lines on the soundtrack instead of one. I'm really surprised no
one here has been able to make anything all of the information printed
on the edge of the film.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by CineSIght
These are originals from 68, sat in the same place for 30 years. Two
white lines on the soundtrack instead of one.

That's a push-pull mono track. If you look you'll see the two white lines
are identical.

I'm really surprised no

Post by CineSIght
one here has been able to make anything all of the information printed
on the edge of the film.

They are edge numbers for timing. They aren't important.

What you care about are the date codes:
http://www.historicphotoarchive.com/f1/ekcode.html
--scott

[CineSIght]

These are originals from 68, sat in the same place for 30 years.   Two
white lines on the soundtrack instead of one.  

That's a push-pull mono track.  If you look you'll see the two white lines
are identical.
I'm really surprised no one here has been able to make anything all of the information printed

on the edge of the film.

They are edge numbers for timing.  They aren't important.

The markings also identify the type of film, which, I think, is
significant, but nobody has mentioned it.

[J. Theakston]

Post by CineSIght

These are originals from 68, sat in the same place for 30 years.   Two
white lines on the soundtrack instead of one.  

That's a push-pull mono track.  If you look you'll see the two white lines
are identical.
I'm really surprised no one here has been able to make anything all of the information printed

on the edge of the film.

They are edge numbers for timing.  They aren't important.

The markings also identify the type of film, which, I think, is
significant, but nobody has mentioned it.

White lettering is print through from neg, so the black lettering is
what you're interested in.

The dye layer failure is fairly consistent among Eastman stocks from
that era. Deep freeze if you want to keep them the same color, but
I'd be surprised if they have any color worth keeping right now.

If it's very important, dupe them onto new stock.

J. Theakston

[CineSIght]

Post by J. Theakston

Post by CineSIght

These are originals from 68, sat in the same place for 30 years.   Two
white lines on the soundtrack instead of one.  

That's a push-pull mono track.  If you look you'll see the two white lines
are identical.
I'm really surprised no one here has been able to make anything all of the information printed

on the edge of the film.

They are edge numbers for timing.  They aren't important.

The markings also identify the type of film, which, I think, is
significant, but nobody has mentioned it.

White lettering is print through from neg, so the black lettering is
what you're interested in.
The dye layer failure is fairly consistent among Eastman stocks from
that era.  Deep freeze if you want to keep them the same color, but
I'd be surprised if they have any color worth keeping right now.
If it's very important, dupe them onto new stock.
J. Theakston

Actually the teaser is all color graphics, and the other is scenes
from the film. Both appear to have most of their color. I
transferred all the trailers for the laserdisc from the negs years
ago. The long trailer was in fact produced in Stereo and we used that
track for the video. My interest in preserving these is to be able to
project them.

[J. Theakston]

Post by CineSIght
Actually the teaser is all color graphics, and the other is scenes
from the film.  Both appear to have most of their color.  I
transferred all the trailers for the laserdisc from the negs years
ago.  The long trailer was in fact produced in Stereo and we used that
track for the video.  My interest in preserving these is to be able to
project them.

Your lack of information is confusing a number of people here. What
films are these trailers for? Did you just get these trailers now or
are they the same ones that you used to transfer for the laserdisc
years ago? If the trailers are from 1968 and from NSS, I seriously
doubt that they are optical stereo, but push-pull tracks as Mr. Dorsey
indicated before.

If you want to preserve what color is left on them, take them to a
vault that has cold storage facilities. The caveat is that low
temperature and humidity may result in base shrinkage. But that is
the best advice that anyone can give on this newsgroup.

J. Theakston

[CineSIght]

Your lack of information is confusing a number of people here.  What
films are these trailers for?  Did you just get these trailers now or
are they the same ones that you used to transfer for the laserdisc
years ago?  If the trailers are from 1968 and from NSS, I seriously
doubt that they are optical stereo, but push-pull tracks as Mr. Dorsey
indicated before.
If you want to preserve what color is left on them, take them to a
vault that has cold storage facilities.  The caveat is that low
temperature and humidity may result in base shrinkage.  But that is
the best advice that anyone can give on this newsgroup.
J. Theakston

Sorry you're confused, but actually, everything you just asked, I've
already posted.

Aside from good ventilation, and not using small cores or metal cans,
I'm back to what I knew upfront, which is store in a cool dry place.
But I will look for good sized cores and won't store in airtight or
metal. - thanks all for that!

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by CineSIght

These are originals from 68, sat in the same place for 30 years. =A0 Two
white lines on the soundtrack instead of one. =A0

That's a push-pull mono track. =A0If you look you'll see the two white li=

nes

are identical.
I'm really surprised no one here has been able to make anything all of th=

e information printed

on the edge of the film.

They are edge numbers for timing. =A0They aren't important.

The markings also identify the type of film, which, I think, is
significant, but nobody has mentioned it.

Not the ones you mentioned. There might be some other ones which do, but
not all stocks have any identification.
--scott

[Steve Kraus]

If it's just the two trailers why not just seal them up and put them into
the freezer?

[CineSIght]

Post by Steve Kraus
If it's just the two trailers why not just seal them up and put them into
the freezer?

Are you SERIOUS? Cool & Dry I can see, but frozen, no....

[spacecadet]

Post by CineSIght

Post by Steve Kraus
If it's just the two trailers why not just seal them up and put them into
the freezer?

Are you SERIOUS? Cool & Dry I can see, but frozen, no....

Actually that is recommended for long-term storage where access is very
infrequent. But the RH is important too. If too high you can get water
damage on thawing.

Have a look here
http://www.screensound.gov.au/preservation/film_handbook/cold_storage.html

In you hot humid apartment freezing might well be the best option.

[William Hooper]

Post by spacecadet
In you hot humid apartment freezing might well be the best option.

It may not be as simple as just tossing it in your freezer.

I read in some AMIA discussion cautions regarding commercial
freezers. The frost-free feature works by occasionally cycling the
temperature down low enough to melt the frost.

It's a little less problematic with sealed packages of new film.
Maybe vacuum-sealing the film to be stored before puttting it in the
freezer would be a good idea. On the other hand, it really needs a
trip on a rewind occasionally to keep it from developing core-set.

[CineSIght]

Post by William Hooper

Post by spacecadet
In you hot humid apartment freezing might well be the best option.

It may not be as simple as just tossing it in your freezer.
I read in some AMIA discussion cautions regarding commercial
freezers.  The frost-free feature works by occasionally cycling the
temperature down low enough to melt the frost.
It's a little less problematic with sealed packages of new film.
Maybe vacuum-sealing the film to be stored before puttting it in the
freezer would be a good idea.  On the other hand, it really needs a
trip on a rewind occasionally to keep it from developing core-set.

They've survived the extreme temperatures of an outdoor storage unit
in Upstate New York for almost forty years. No way am I putting them
in the freezer.

[William Hooper]

A key point for staving off vinegar syndrome seems to have been
identified as ventilation.

There was an article in the SMPTE journal years ago about good results
with a new ventilated film can design that had radial ribs keeping the
edge of the film from being completely flat on the can and allowing a
little circulation when the cans were stored horzontally.

At any rate, the key issues seem to be ventilation, occasional
rewinding, large diameter core, don't use a metal film can if
possible. You could go poke around on the AMIA site for more info.

[VOR-DME]

In article

Post by CineSIght
They've survived the extreme temperatures of an outdoor storage unit
in Upstate New York for almost forty years. No way am I putting them
in the freezer.

You say you want to preserve them, but when other contributors point you
to professional preservation methods, you're not having any. You could
always have a separation done, and store the B/W negs for centuries at
cold temperatures, but since you say your interest is in projecting
these actual prints, I say, project'em now. The time to open this
particular time capsule is now. If you're careful you will be able to
project them occasionally for a few years to come, after that you will
not be able to find a functioning, well-maintained 35mm projector any
more!

Very much doubt you actually have stereo optical tracks on a release
print from that era. Dual, bilateral tracks have two identical variable
area traces.

[CineSIght]

Post by VOR-DME
In article

Post by CineSIght
They've survived the extreme temperatures of an outdoor storage unit
in Upstate New York for almost forty years.  No way am I putting them
in the freezer.

You say you want to preserve them, but when other contributors point you
to professional preservation methods, you're not having any. You could
always have a separation done, and store the B/W negs for centuries at
cold temperatures, but since you say your interest is in projecting
these actual prints, I say, project'em now. The time to open this
particular time capsule is now. If you're careful you will be able to
project them occasionally for a few years to come, after that you will
not be able to find a functioning, well-maintained 35mm projector any
more!
Very much doubt you actually have stereo optical tracks on a release
print from that era. Dual, bilateral tracks have two identical variable
area traces.

I never said these were the only copies. I did say I had the negs
transferred to video years ago, so the studio should still have them.
I just wanted to store these prints as well as possible without going
to extremes. That's it. I already knew a cool dry place was
better. The freezer is too extreme and risky. I learned a wider core
would help and some ventilation is better than airtight sealing.
That'll do fine.

[Scott Norwood]

In article <4bd0679b$0$18396$***@news.free.fr>,
VOR-DME <***@goaway.net> wrote:
[snip]

Post by VOR-DME
The time to open this
particular time capsule is now. If you're careful you will be able to
project them occasionally for a few years to come, after that you will
not be able to find a functioning, well-maintained 35mm projector any
more!

[more snip]

Huh? Even if we assume that 35mm projection in mainstream theatres
is on the way out, I can't be the only person here who has walked
into an abandoned projection booth and gotten the equipment clean
and operational in an hour or so. That's after the machines have
sat idle for 25+ years with no regular use or maintenance.

This equipment tends to be very well built and should outlast all
of us, in many cases.

Never mind that 35mm projection facilities will exist for many
decades into the future in venues that show archival material.

[Martin 'Martinland' Schemitsch]

Post by Scott Norwood
Huh? Even if we assume that 35mm projection in mainstream theatres
is on the way out, I can't be the only person here who has walked
into an abandoned projection booth and gotten the equipment clean
and operational in an hour or so. That's after the machines have
sat idle for 25+ years with no regular use or maintenance.
This equipment tends to be very well built and should outlast all
of us, in many cases.
Never mind that 35mm projection facilities will exist for many
decades into the future in venues that show archival material.

That cannot be said at all about all these digital D-Cinema, E-Cinema, LCD, DLP, etc. projectors or whatever they are called right now (in whatever resolution is "standard" at the moment)... ...progress? 8-D

ML

[VOR-DME]

In article <hr6t12$dme$***@reader1.panix.com>, ***@redballoon.net
says...

Post by Scott Norwood
Huh? Even if we assume that 35mm projection in mainstream theatres
is on the way out, I can't be the only person here who has walked
into an abandoned projection booth and gotten the equipment clean
and operational in an hour or so. That's after the machines have
sat idle for 25+ years with no regular use or maintenance.
This equipment tends to be very well built and should outlast all
of us, in many cases.
Never mind that 35mm projection facilities will exist for many
decades into the future in venues that show archival material.

Well, I did intend some degree of hyperbole with that assertion, but it
was not a complete joke either. Already those dual-bilateral mono tracks
will not play very well on any projector in a movie theater today, with a
LED scanning head, and it will take you more than an hour or so to find
and install an old incandescant exciter lamp setup.

One thing we notice recently is that digital technologies are progressing
faster than seasoned 'experts' anticipate, and I think it's safe to
assume that the replacement of film gear in movie theaters will
accelerate markedly.

As for archival facilities, one of the biggest problems archives face
today is finding working machines or repairing machines for playback of
obsolete formats. (Try to view a 2" B/W video tape today). Their approach
is to try to build or fix a machine to reproduce the document once, and
get a transfer onto some digital format. As abundant as motion picture
projectors may seem today, it is obvious they will be much less so in a
few years, and it's just amazing how quickly abundant items become rare.
35mm projectors are just a bit to big and messy to be used as trinkets in
antique-shop windows, like Edison phonographs so it's likely they will be
scrapped on an industrial scale.

[Steve Kraus]

Post by Steve Kraus
If it's just the two trailers why not just seal them up and put them
into the freezer?
Are you SERIOUS? Cool & Dry I can see, but frozen, no....

Absolutely serious. Do a little research and you'll see. I'm not sure
if it's a good idea for mag tracks but for ordinary film it's the best
way to preserve it. Read some of the AMIA listserve archives.

I'll share a little anecdote. When I was a kid I got my first 16mm
projector; something my dad saw at a garage sale. It came with a little
400' sponsored film which is what I used to tinker with before I started
borrowing features from our local library system. The film, color print
stock from 1960, was, at almost 20 or so years old, extremely faded but
still had some cyan left so not totally gone.

In 1980 Weekly Variety published their story about the color fading
crisis headlined "OLD PIX DON'T DIE, THEY FADE AWAY," building upon an
earlier story in Film Comment. I was very interested and I was quite
sure that in the few years I had my little film roll it sure seemed to be
getting more and more red (magenta).

Even though the film is a worthless piece of junk I liked to think maybe
it's the only print left and the negative is long gone (it might be a
reduction from 35; I've never been sure. Columbia produced it). So I
wrapped it up in plastic and aluminum foil and more plastic and stuck it
in the freezer for what was supposed to be a brief period.

The brief period went on for years before I finally retrieved it and
checked it and it was fine. Then back in the freezer. And all but
forgotten. Probably a decade went by before I looked at it again.

It's been kept frozen now for somewhere between 25 and 30 years. Before
posting this I pulled it out and let it warm up before unwrapping it. I
just screened it now and it looks just as it has in the past. Still some
cyan there and essentially unchanged since the last time I saw it. No
issues with the general condition of the base or emulsion either. I am
absolutely convinced that ordinary storage would have resulted in a
totally magenta image by now.

So yes, in my very limited personal experience with what is admittedly
something nearly worthless I would say it was highly successful.

I wish I could turn back the clock and store my 35mm print of "Blade
Runner" (original release) in a freezer. Mint condition and gorgeous
when I got it, it was on non low fade stock and all those rich blacks are
now see-through magenta. It's enough to make you want to cry. It used
to be so great to dazzle people with the images and pull the aperture
plate and point out (from differences in the frame edges) what shots were
65mm. I guess I can still do that until it goes vinegar--but to actually
view one would be better off with the Blu-ray.